The debate between prison reformists and prison abolitionists is raw and heavily politicised. This increases the risk of each side in the debate speaking past each other or criticising straw man versions of their opponents’ arguments. In this conversation with Andy West, criminologist Jason Warr offers an even-handed assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of both positions, along with some reflections on the morality of punishment.

We may think of animals as having moral value. But, because they are property, they don’t have moral value. They are just thing."